Bloom is an Investment and Development company that transform under-utilised real estate in Central London into ultra-urban warehouses, creating high quality spaces for e-commerce, on-demand food delivery and logistics operators (amongst many other innovative businesses) who struggle to source suitable industrial and logistics warehouse facilities in Central London.
Last year Bloom entered into a £250m joint venture with the real estate private equity group Angelo Gordon to scale an ultra-urban warehouse and logistics portfolio in London. In the last year they have built a £125m 4-asset portfolio with another 125,000 sq ft of opportunities in the pipeline.
Tom Davies LinkedIn
Sam McGirr LinkedIn
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[00:00:00] James: Today, I'm delighted to be speaking to Tom Davies and Sam McGirr, the co-founders of Bloom Developments. Bloom is an investment and development company that transforms under-utilised real estate in central London into ultra-urban warehouses, creating high quality spaces for e-commerce, on demand food delivery and logistics operators who struggle to source suitable, industrial and logistics warehouse facilities in central London.
[00:00:39] James: Last year, Bloom entered into a £250m joint venture with the real estate private equity group, Angelo Gordon to scale an ultra-urban warehouse and logistics portfolio in London. In the last year they have built a 125 million pound four-asset portfolio with another 125,000 square foot of opportunities in the pipeline. Tom and Sam are true pioneers in this fast growing and exciting commercial property category, and I'm excited to hear more about their journey to date and ambitious plans for the future. Welcome Tom and Sam.
[00:01:09] Tom: Thanks very much for having us James, really happy to be here.
[00:01:11] James: Absolutely, guys I'd love to know the story behind Bloom so far. Starting with you Sam, can you briefly explain your background and how you came to create Bloom?
[00:01:20] Sam: Yeah so my background was initially in the London office investment market, a company called GN2, focused on west end and city office investment. I'd always had ambitions to move into development and to do a couple of years abroad. So I moved to North America and then ended up in Vancouver. I was working for a company called Forme Development who are a design led, urban mix use, west coast developer. So they had projects in both Vancouver, but also in Los Angeles. So I was based in Vancouver, but working between the two cities on high-rise and hotel projects, but usually with a component of commercial or retail space. Tom and I have always kind of discussed work and business in the kind of 10, 15 years that we've known each other. And while I was away that kind of increased as we got a bit older and we were talking about the big shifts that were happening in the logistics and industrial space and how that last mile, last mile element of the supply chain was becoming more and more important. Tom was obviously seeing it first hand at SEGRO and yeah, I'll let Tom introduce himself and tell you a little bit more about Bloom conceptually.
[00:02:23] Tom: So, thanks very much, Sam. I spent my formative years straight out of doing our masters together at Reading and Sam and I kind of did our masters together there. Spent my formative years working at SEGRO who are the largest owner and developer of industrial and industrial sites across Europe and slightly less glamorous than Sam in Vancouver. I was predominantly working on the Slough trading estate, otherwise known as Sloughbados, which gave me a great insight into industrial occupiers and the different types and the key requirements.
[00:02:52] Tom: I focused for the last three and a half years of my time there in the London development team, I was looking at bringing forward multi-layer and mid-box industrial estates within the M25 in London. So supporting the acquisition of these sites and then delivering them through and letting them, or selling them. And whilst I was there SEGRO were looking at potentially these more central markets for logistics operators predominantly whilst I appreciate that's probably changed at the time there was a bit of a shift with DPD and others taking more central space, which we'll get touched on a bit later, and CUO and others we're looking at trying to create inner city space to give their customers the full spectrum of warehouses across the supply chains, inner city, edge of town, traditionally where industrial estates are located to regional distribution centres and national distribution centres.
[00:03:40] Tom: I've always wanted to run my own business and had done actually for eight years before running an events business on the side, but left a couple of years ago to join a startup accelerator called Antler to basically build a logistics company, and looked at it for a while, but moved away from it and started focusing on data analytics and started building a business in that space but couldn't get rid of the logistics last mile itch that needs to be scratched.
[00:04:02] Tom: So I started talking to Sam about some of the trends I was seeing in the market and the opportunity I saw and then we basically started going and speaking to people, speaking to funders, speaking to operators, speaking to owners, and trying to find and build a site pipeline, which eventually progressed to us looking predominantly at industrial logistics estates and trying to repurpose these and breathe new life into them to create effectively a portfolio of ultra urban, inner city warehousing and multi-layer industrial estates of high quality with a key focus on sustainability and we've been really lucky to coincidentally bump into Angelo Gordon and have agreed a initial joint venture with them to start focusing on this market over the next kind of over the short to medium term.
[00:04:46] James: Yeah, and look, I mean, logistics operators have needed this type of space for a while. Can you take us through some of the other innovative businesses who have this type of requirement and your typical occupier profile that you're targeting.
[00:04:59] Sam: So for the on demand grocers their requirements again, because they need to be so centrally located. It's difficult for them to actually be on multi-let industrial estates, because even if it takes them a minute or two to leave the estate that has a big impact on the delivery time when you're promising customers, you're going to be there in 10 minutes. So we've actually seen some of the on demand grocery guys take what is traditionally retail space or E-Class units, and incorporating a click and collect component to their business, which they don't really want purely to be located in a high street or somewhere that's even closer to there end customer. You know, you've got the classic nimbyism of people wanting food delivered hot and fresh nearby, but not wanting a load of riders on their streets because they use the third party, gig economy riders to deliver the food. They have less control over loitering drivers or noisy scooters, which can cause issues with residents. So they've got to pick areas where they're going to be supported from a planning perspective from the local council and as well sites that have enhanced ventilation for obvious reasons, preparing food and things like that.
[00:06:03] Sam: Then self storage guys, which we touched on quite interesting, because they only require two, two and a half metre height to put in the their storage units. So there are lots of sites where they can get in perhaps an additional floor and another occupier can't get in and consequently make it more commercially viable than the different style of occupier.
[00:06:23] James: Tom mentioned you speaking to a bunch of occupies and there in the early days, Sam, could you tell us a bit more about those conversations and how it sort of helped you to from Bloom?
[00:06:33] Sam: This is a really important thing for us from a sort of concept proving standpoint, and there were three main reasons why we went out and spoke to the occupiers. That first summer, I think, close to 150 occupiers that we interviewed and had set up calls with trying to extract warm intros where we could get our points across. But the first was that we had this idea that these companies need to be located more centrally. We knew it was true of the logistics sector, we'd seen DPD set up a micro health strategy in Shoreditch and Westminster, take space in zone one. We thought this is probably true of a much wider array of companies, including retailers and a load of other guys. So we wanted to test that and we thought to some extent, we were going to have to sell the idea that people need to look at changing their strategy. But we were actually blown away that most of the people we spoke with said, we know we need this space more centrally, we can't get it, it doesn't exist, do you have some so that was a big positive.
[00:07:25] Sam: Then the second major reason we wanted to speak to the occupiers is to understand what compromises can be made for these sites. So when you're in these really central locations, that the site's very constrained, you're dealing with a load of complex issues that you wouldn't have in more traditional institutional industrial locations, because you're so close to residential, the public realm, the public in general. And so we wanted to understand what compromises in terms of yard depth, in terms of the vehicles that they used in terms of what the space looked like, how it was designed were occupiers prepared to take in order to be in these more central locations, and what areas were completely fundamental and couldn't shift because clearly, you know, we, weren't going to be able to deliver the institutional grade industrial space that you might get out and out in the Midlands.
[00:08:09] Sam: A good example of that actually is a big reason for these occupiers locating more centrally is to use smaller electric vehicles, become more sustainable. So most of our sites, I think all but one, we don't accommodate any articulated lorries, we only deliver, we only accommodate up to a 10 metre rigid. So it was understanding those sorts of compromises and what specification occupiers really cared about.
[00:08:32] Sam: Then the final reason we were keen to speak to occupiers is obviously setting up a fund of this type. We thought we were going to have to differentiate ourselves, given that most people doing this have long, you know, 20, 30 year track records of doing it as a principal, and are slightly older. And so we thought, well how can we differentiate ourselves when it comes to attracting, you know, institutional investment to back us, and really aligning ourselves to the occupier and understanding exactly what their needs were and building up long-term relationships with those occupiers and having an index of expertise of how their businesses functioned we thought was, would be really crucial. So we thought before we do anything else, that's to speak to every occupier and really gauge how they operate and what they need.
[00:09:12] James: Yeah, it's really smart. It's starting with the end user in mind and working backwards to form a property strategy around them, and how did you come to speak to Angelo Gordon?
[00:09:22] Tom: We actually got introduced to Angelo Gordon by Fifth Wall, who I think my last check of the largest prop tech venture capital fund globally. Angelo Gordon were actually one of the investors in various, in various funds. And I've been super fortunate to work closely with Fifth Wall during my time at SEGRO where I was involved in helping test and update the company's PropTech strategy and looking at care as a potential disruption for the sector and ways for SEGRO to drive efficiencies, create value, and de-risk certain areas. When Sam and I were speaking to funders on what was effectively a zoom roadshow, because it was in the middle of COVID and lockdown. I reached out to Miguel, who is one of the European partners, coincidentally at the time Fifth Wall were actually exploring making an investment in the quick commerce space.
[00:10:03] Tom: We were pretty close with quite a few of those operators, so given our kind of market knowledge in that area, and also kind of being in the right place at the right time, Fifth Wall kindly asked if we could join a webinar on quick commerce and inner city warehousing to tell their LP's and investors about some of the new, interesting trends, you know, stuff, stuff around dark stores, micro hubs, dark kitchens, et cetera, and some of the occupiers that were taking advantage of the new consumer habits and trends. We just about bumbled our way through the webinar and Angelo Gordon followed up as they owned a car park in central London and wanted to hear our thoughts about what they could potentially do with it. So we got talking, took it from there. But it's quite amuzing really because Sam and I had been spending endless days and nights thinking about different funding partners to approach, how on earth we were going to get warm introductions. And without intending to we almost kind of bumped into Angelo Gordon in a bar.
[00:10:51] Tom: But it's been a fantastic experience so far with Angelo Gordon, you know, they're super supportive and we're really pleased, and they're equally excited about the opportunity that we see.
[00:10:59] James: Well, that sounds fantastic. Back to the occupiers for a second what are the key drivers for locating their businesses more centrally and next to chimney pots?
[00:11:09] Tom: Yes, it's a super important question, and one that we're kind of still, you know, testing and validating every day. Our aim as a business is to create high quality warehouse space for our customers and occupiers so that they can effectively better serve their customers, which is often the end consumer. And ultimately it's changing consumer habits, which is driving many occupiers to change how they operate and where they're located, and you're seeing lots of new business models transpire to try and capitalise on these trends like dark kitchens on demand, grocers, E mobility, vertical farming, et cetera. Digitalisation and e-commerce spending is increasing the need for warehouse space to fulfill logistics and deliveries, and the UK is the most advanced European nation in terms of e-commerce penetration.
[00:11:51] Tom: I think e-commerce accounted for 19% of total re-sells in the UK during 2019, during the pandemic this figure reached as high as 50%.Whilst the pandemic has accelerated ecomm spend with people at home, unable to go to the shops many of which were closed. We're firm believers this trend will continue to grow. Now, coupled with consumer preferences for convenience and instant gratification. There is a real growth in the need for inner city warehousing next, the chimney pots and the CBD, the central business district. So that goods and services can be delivered to the end consumer or businesses rapidly. I mean, only recently there was a drive towards next day and same day delivery. Yet now there is a growing shift towards instant consumptions of goods and services, which is already happening in China, in the US and typically the UK is a few years behind. A lot of people at the moment don't want to wait two days to receive their Tesco groceries, or their ASOS package and the Amazon effect of offering instant consumption has driven other businesses to offer the same as a standard service, and will struggle to compete.
[00:12:49] Tom: In terms of the London market, quick commerce and the grocery vertical has been a big trend in the last 18 months. There've been loads of new entrance in the market who offer 10 minute grocery delivery from order placing, which is just unheard of. These guys have raised over a billion each off the back of rapid uptake in consumer adoption and consumer habits are changing and we anticipate this to happen in other verticals like fashion, pharmaceutical, or electronics, retail, e-commerce. The reason we see ultra urban warehousing as a great opportunity in real estate terms is there is increasing demand for occupiers to be located in inner London, where there is already extremely limited high-quality warehouse space or land as a huge amount of older industrial land has been sold for higher value uses like residential.
[00:13:29] James: Amazing. I find it fascinating that someone delivered something in eight minutes to my door last week. So could you tell us a bit about their specific requirements? Because you know, I live in Southeast London, they're obviously guaranteeing this in loads of different boroughs. When they come to you, what does the sort of typical occupier requirements for one of your ultra urban warehouses?
[00:13:52] Sam: Yeah so for, on demand grocers, mostly centred around the immediate proximity to that customer, obviously, you know, you need to be centrally located if you're doing same day delivery or same hour delivery. But when you get to that kind of 10, 15 minute delivery this is fundamental to your whole operation. So, you know, even having an industrial estate that takes a minute or two to leave is a bit is a big problem for those guys. They need to be right in close proximity to chimney pots and the demographics that they want to sell to, and they're very driven on using data to work out whether the location should be. On the whole they take slightly smaller units, probably between 2 to 4,000 square feet. They don't like anywhere that's got restrictions on the hours of operation because they have to deliver goods on a daily basis in the early hours of the morning to accommodate people ordering that speed throughout the day
[00:14:38] Tom: Just to add to that, that's one specific customer. One specific potential customer for us, but what we're doing as a business is generally trying to create those modern high quality industrial states, which are multi-tenanted to target a diversity of different occupiers across modern and traditional industrial and logistics. So on the kind of traditional side, you know, there are operators like self storage, film, food, and beverage, production, manufacturing, building supplies, post and parcel, and on the kind of newer business model side, there's dark kitchens, on demand grocers, et cetera. So yeah, we're trying to create that space that enables them to have a home in these more central areas to deliver on their promise to the end consumer.
[00:15:17] James: It's fascinating, it's certainly a hot investment category I'm sure at the moment. What attracts the likes of say Angelo Gordon to make such a huge investment in this type of property? What are they looking at into the future? Is it rental premium? Rental growth?
[00:15:34] Tom: Yeah, well, I don't want to speak necessarily on their behalf, but when we started speaking with Angelo Gordon, we were delighted they shared our passion for the ultra urban warehousing and how we could provide the type of high quality, sustainably driven warehouse space so needed for occupiers in these more central areas. In simple economic terms where the supply and demand imbalance comes more competition, which drives pricing. In real estate this effectively boils down to rents increasing and property values increasing and warehouse rents have increased in inner London drastically during the last few years. However, what we find really attractive is that the niche inner London warehouse market is still in our view at its infancy stage. The trends of e-commerce penetration and instant gratification that we'll touch on a bit later are going to continue driving more and more businesses to locate centrally in our view. Rental growth and forecast market adoption coupled with the difficulty of creating a load of new supply in this market in the next three to five years, makes the investment environments super exciting. What also excites us is the opportunity to help provide a positive impact on the built environment for design led, sustainability driven developments.
[00:16:37] Tom: Most often we're looking at purchasing older, under utilised industrial states, which have a far worse impact on the environment generally, then our proposed new developments and I personally find it particularly exciting as we are working in a super modern, innovative, and exciting sector with loads of super bright people and entrepreneurs thinking differently and creating new business models.
[00:16:55] James: So you guys launched Bloom during the pandemic. How did this affect your business?
[00:17:00] Sam: Yeah, I think we were very lucky in some ways, obviously the pandemic was tough for everyone and tough for us but from a business standpoint, I think we were quite lucky. Firstly, it exacerbated all the trends and themes that we've been talking about and brought them to the forefront. I think of both occupiers and the end consumers minds and what was already happening, but might've taken, you know, 5, 10 years. It was kind of squeezed into an 18 month period as occupiers and businesses realised they needed to change that models around new consumer behaviour. We saw restaurants, even upmarket restaurants, who would never previously considered it suddenly having delivery and takeout components to their businesses that they've continued doing since. Big sways of the populations, especially the older generations, increasing the amount they ordered online and then realising, you know, that's actually an easy way to do their shopping and continuing beyond that, which obviously has its own implications for e-commerce and for what we're doing.
[00:17:54] Sam: So it was great from that side and it was also good from a pragmatic standpoint, as Tom's already mentioned, when we first started we basically had no money, we were working at my small kitchen table but having these calls with big investors and institutional real estate companies who on the whole sort of assumes that we were doing it from a kitchen because it's lock down and you know that we had an office somewhere, which of course we actually didn't. All the big service firms panicked in lock down massively reduced their graduate intake. So there are all these high calibre graduates who suddenly didn't have jobs who are willing to take internships with us, you know, perhaps wouldn't have done previously given at the time we were a pretty unknown two man operation without office space.
[00:18:35] Sam: So there were aload of unforeseen benefits that I think we didn't really consider as well as of course there's major trends that underpin our actual business model.
[00:18:44] James: Yeah and you touched on the sustainability elements of your developments, both in design and then Sam, you mentioned the e-bikes. So, what are your initiatives that you're taking and what demand do you get from occupiers for making your buildings and processes more sustainable?
[00:19:00] Tom: So sustainability is a key pillar of Bloom's values as a business. We are a business with an average age below 30, and we're hugely conscious of having a positive impact on the environment and social for future generations. Our developments are all targeting some of the best green and sustainable accreditations out there. We're targeting Breeam Excellent which is a top rating for assessing the sustainability of properties and developments. We're also targeting BPC a plus, which is another top accreditation, which focuses on energy performance. We want to create buildings which are super energy efficient and produce clean energy.
[00:19:30] Tom: Social is also a key pillar for us. We're always looking at ways in which we can have a positive impact on the local community and the area we're investing in. In terms of occupiers and their requirements and demand specifically, there is a real drive for many of the businesses operating from warehouses to have a positive impact on the environment and become carbon neutral, and limit greenhouse gas emissions, effectively ESG. There are a variety of occupiers looking for buildings with leading sustainability ratings and the potential to limit their impact on the environment and ultimately in the inner London market where we're focused as a business, there just aren't many buildings that actually suit these occupiers, supply is lacking.
[00:20:04] Tom: Sadiq Khan the mayor of London has set a target for London to be net zero by 2030. Planning policy and government bodies, such as TFL and greater London authority are driving green logistics initiatives to reduce congestion, carbon emissions and improve air quality, and this is having an impact on various potential customers of ours who use delivery vehicles. So for example, post and parcel businesses like DPD, UPS, and Royal Mail are all investing heavily in electric fleets. The same can be said for Acado and Amazon, and also the on demand grocers amongst others who are using electric vehicles. These guys are looking for high quality, sustainable warehousing, which has enabled the necessary infrastructure for the future of vehicle fleet electrification and our estates in particular, we're using solar panels to generate clean energy.
[00:20:46] Tom: We're putting electric charging infrastructure, enhanced electronic infrastructure at every parking bay or loading door. And we're looking at delivering enhanced power capacities to enable larger electric fleets. We want to give these occupied buildings, the sustainability infrastructure they need for now, but also the long term.
[00:21:02] James: What are some of the biggest challenges you face at the moment? You're a young business. So the challenges you face growing the business, but also finding sites in London.
[00:21:12] Tom: From a business and operational perspective there's the usual areas around hiring top talent as a young, newish businesses is never easy. Convincing people to come on the journey at a stage where you are young and it is all hands on deck, and you're not necessarily just doing your role. You're getting involved in loads of other areas in the business. Managing cash flow versus the opportunity cost of investing more now to scale faster, as well as running a business and having an operational or technical skill set, which I don't think is actually often that talked about, for example, I'm not sure people often talk about this, but all of the corporate stuff of running a business is very time-consuming like accounts, HR, tech, marketing, tax, legal.
[00:21:50] Tom: Ultimately while Sam and I are entrepreneurs, we also are real estate people, delivering development projects and finding the opportunities to acquire sites or create value. So it's really about balancing this correctly, whilst we're relatively resource strapped to ensure we continue to progress and grow at the rate we want. In terms of the market specifically there is a lot of market talk at the moment and press about new entrants in the market, whether it's industrial developers, residential developers, or investors, or owner-occupiers who are competing for the same real estate and sites that we are, they are driving up the values and competing on sites, also for occupiers that we want to be targeting as well.
[00:22:28] Tom: We personally still think there are attractive opportunities out there where we can source decent opportunities for us and don't want to get too caught up with focusing on the competition whilst they're clearly a threat. If we spend all day focusing on them, we wouldn't be finding any opportunities. The planning environment is also tricky there is a big push for residential at government level, and yet it's super important we recognise the importance of industrial property and warehouses disserving our economy and people, I think in the last 10 to 11 years, we've lost over a hundred hectares of industrial land in London every single year. And generally once it's gone, it's very unlikely it would be coming back. So it was a very supply constrained market that we need to be conscious of continuing to protect and foster.
[00:23:06] Tom: There's been a lot of talk recently about the construction market being tricky and construction pricing and costs increasing significantly. There's been a backlog of development projects happening this year there'd been labor shortages due to Brexit and building supply shortages due to the supply chain difficulties from the pandemic and also the changing environment with Brexit, but we're always trying to keep an eye on these challenges, risks, and threats on our business.
[00:23:28] Tom: Ultimately at the moment we're really fortunate to have a good balance, a great young driven team and a super supportive funding partner, Angelo Gordon, fingers crossed we continue that way.
[00:23:38] James: Yeah, absolutely and as you grow and as people get to know your business, I'm sure opportunities will come your way and on that. What are your typical site requirements and how do you source those opportunities?
[00:23:50] Sam: So for us, what's super crucial and where we're slightly different is we're very focused on inner cities zones one and two specifically, that's all we do. We've got, long-term focus in London at the moment, but we do have ambitions elsewhere, but they will be in other cities that are similar to London so that we can focus again on that inner city component. So it's very focused from a geographical standpoint.
[00:24:12] Sam: The next, probably most important thing is to be in areas where industrial redevelopment is going to be supported. Tom touched on some of the GLA wider policy do want to protect and support industrial space and industrial intensification, but obviously given the mix that you're going to have in central areas, in terms of all the other users in the built environment, there are areas where it's clearly not feasible. So on the whole, we look for KEBA's which are key industrial business areas which are basically areas designated by local authorities for industrial redevelopment or where it's likely to be supported. So if you're in a central area and it's supported for industrial development we'll almost definitely take a look at it regardless.
[00:24:51] Sam: The third component on top would really just be size. Our sweet spots are anything from 0.8 acres upwards, probably between 1 and 2 is, is the real sweet spot. But again, if those first two boxes are ticked and it's much bigger or even a little bit smaller, we're still gonna have a look.
[00:25:08] James: Right fantastic. Well we've got over 5,000 users of our software, many of whom are in the agency development world. Do you accept introductions from agents and third parties or would you very much find the sites yourselves?
[00:25:22] Sam: Yeah so I think it's changed a little bit as our journey has gone on. When we started, we were having a lot of boots on the ground, going and speaking with private owners and trying to source deals ourselves. But now the market has a bit of an understanding about the funding that we've got and we built up a track record having purchased four assets to date. So you get a lot more inbound from agents, but ultimately for what we want to do off-market opportunities are still the ones that suit us best. And so consequently, we are still keeping a component of that, boots on the ground, speaking to the privates, trying to get out there and find deals ourselves. It's obviously really difficult, but has brought us success to date, and three of those four sites that we've bought were all off market acquisitions.
[00:26:06] Tom: Knocking on doors hasn't always worked out our way though. Me and Sam have been chased out of numerous buildings, whilst walking down the street and just seeing a building. We used to just get in a car and drive around other areas in London and just found small streets to try and find sites and try and drive into them, and we've been a shouted and walked out of many car parks and other industrial sites before.
[00:26:27] James: That's brilliant, and look you're obviously going to grow the business. You're well-funded, you've got a great model. I imagine you've got the occupiers on site too. What are your plans for Bloom over the next five years?
[00:26:39] Tom: I think our dream as a business is to be an investment development manager for the long term, and we've been really fortunate to get where they are in the short term and to be honest we're much further ahead than we thought we'd be and that I think is just down to the amazing support we've had from Angelo Gordon.
[00:26:53] Tom: We do have aims to expand into Europe and potentially other large UK cities where the investment environment and dynamics are suitable, but we are a young business with young founders and whilst we've been incredibly fortunate to have such a fantastic partner and Angelo Gordon supporting us, it's really important for us that we stay laser focused and deliver on our promise to develop a track record. So we're just trying to keep our heads down at present and hopefully the future will look bright.
[00:27:16] James: Amazing well gents we'll be watching your business with interest. I'm sure you're going to grow from strength to strength. It sounds like at your rate of acquisition, we're going to have a conversation in a year's time and see how much you're growing.
[00:27:28] James: So thanks so much for coming and speaking to us and good luck.
[00:27:33] Tom: Thank you very much James, it's been a real pleasure and I'm looking forward to keeping in touch and likewise seeing Edozo's journey evolve.
[00:27:39] James: Brilliant, cheers gents.